Case Study Interview with the managing director of a print media company on the employment of employees with hearing impairments

The following interview was conducted as part of the GINKO project and deals with the work and employment situation of people with hearing impairments.

Before we now go into detail about the hearing impaired employees here in the company, please describe the company and also your function here in a few words.

Yes, we are a print media company. I am the owner and I have been doing the business for about 20 years now. We consist of several parts: once the commercial area, which also includes the publishing technical. Then we have the production, where most of the hearing impaired people work. So on the one hand we have the printing, offset printing, then we have the bookbinding, where the deaf Mr. Lehmann also works. And we have the media designers, who also do the layout. These are the four working areas we have. Exactly, we have about 20 employees, I almost have to count them. Then a relatively high proportion of deaf people and also a relatively high proportion of trainees, actually almost all permanent employees that I have are taken over from the vocational training, because we also train relatively much, also because we have this additional focus that we also train hearing impaired people, which has resulted so.

What is the contact between you and your employees with hearing impairment like?

Depending on the job description. With the printers and bookbinders I have, I say, more frequent contact, because I really look at how far the orders are, what needs to be done. We also have some media designers with hearing impairments, but there is less contact with them because there is someone there who is specially responsible for them. The contact with the bookbinders is almost exclusively through sign language. Among the printers there are some who are partially deaf or only hard of hearing, where it still works partly via spoken language.

Please describe the role of employees with hearing disabilities in your company?

So in principle we don't have any, so I don't have any difference now that I say that those with or without hearing impairment have different functions. We actually have one hearing impaired person who is currently the only permanently employed hearing impaired person we have. The others are all trainees and he also did the vocational training here and has been here for six or seven years now, I would have to look it up. He did the vocational training and has been employed here for three or four years. He also has a management function within the bookbindery, that is to say he manages the bookbindery and then also trains, yes, mainly also the other hearing-impaired bookbinders. So we also have a master craftsman, he has the daily contact. And yes, there are no differences in the function. So I don't make any difference either. So in principle every hearing impaired person can and must do his work just like someone without hearing impairment or disability. The only difference is the communication, otherwise there are no differences. With media designers, it is once again the case that communication is a bit handicapped in principle. That one halt with the apprentices, who have anyway less customer contact than now someone permanently employed, but there that can take place if then only over E-Mail. And we have relatively few customers in the typesetting area anyway. But there is no direct contact via yes, via spoken language. Those are just the only, the only restrictions that are there.

Now you said, Mr XXX is responsible for the hearing impaired trainees and bookbinders.

Bookbinders, yes.

That means you have other trainees as well?

Well, first of all, we basically train in four areas. One is the offset printer, then the bookbinder, then the media designer, I'm leaving out the female form, and then we have a media salesman here. These are the four training professions that we basically have. So he has trained as a bookbinder and he is in the bookbindery and then he has the trainee bookbinders under him.

And they themselves also, they all have a hearing impairment?

In fact, we have a relatively large number of trainees with hearing disabilities and actually more trainees in the bookbinding area than we would take on or employ in our day-to-day operations. We have six in the bookbinding area, so two bookbinders in each apprenticeship year. This is due to the way it has developed, because Mr XXX is deaf himself and we have numerous machines on which we can train. With the hearing impaired it is also the case that they have block lessons. That means that one apprenticeship year is always completely at the vocational school, which means that one third of all apprentices are at least permanently away. Then there's a bit of holiday, a bit of illness, so on average we have three trainees there. So six machines that don't run parallel, but there we have the possibilities to continue vocational training and partly there is enough time to learn, because we just fill something beyond the normal ratio.

And is Mr XXX also responsible for hearing employees?

Not in this case, because it has turned out that way and it also makes sense that we really only have deaf people or hearing-impaired people in the bookbinding area and they all know sign language. Is that so practical and also makes sense that if there was someone doing vocational training who was not hearing impaired, he would also be responsible for him. So that wouldn't be mutually exclusive, but that's just not the case de facto.

And then you just said that it's quite practical to employ hearing-impaired employees in this area. My question is: Why does your company employ or why do you employ hearing impaired employees?

That's basically how it is, so it has resulted from the history, you can almost say. So Mr. XXX was one of the first who did an internship here as a hearing impaired person. And Mr. XXX is one of the most precise and best bookbinders I have ever had, because of his precision and his qualities as a human being, which has nothing to do with the hearing impairment. So and as a consequence of that, of course, I hired him on a permanent basis. And yes and as I said also with the apprentices a logical conclusion, so you don't have any difference with the hearing impaired from another youngster. There are some who are, let's say, good in terms of their attitude, there are some who are, let's say, lazy, listless like any normal young person. So we don't make any difference and because we train, as they say here, in the first labour market, we try in principle to pick out the people who are suitable for it. So it doesn't make sense to train someone, no matter if they are hearing impaired or not, who simply doesn't perform as required or who can't pass later on. And all the others who can exist on the market, on the labour market, we can train them here or we are happy to train them here. But there is no difference. You don't say that you demand less performance because someone is hearing impaired. And that doesn't make sense either, because if you underchallenge people or demand less of them or say, "This doesn't have to be done so comprehensively." Then, at the latest, the next time you hire people, they first have the problem that they would be below average and then they can't pass there.

So would you say that this job of bookbinder or also this apprenticeship is particularly suitable for hearing impaired employees?

Yes, at least the hearing impairment is not a major limitation. As a rule, bookbinders have less contact with customers, which means that it is really about internal communication. And if a company is internally willing or able to communicate with hearing impaired people or in the not so ideal case the hearing impaired person goes there and meets the needs of the hearing person or if necessary by writing it down, if it is not possible by sign language or gestures, then this is a job where at least the customer contact does not stand in the way. In the printing hall there is also a certain noise level, which is almost predestined for sign language, i.e. it is almost easier to communicate in sign language than through normal spoken language. So sign language has almost advantages in this case. It is actually a suitable job in this area, because you have to find activities somewhere where the handicap, I say, is not a factor that cannot actually be compensated for in this case, and here it can be compensated for. Through sign language or, if necessary, by writing it down, so it's a suitable job, yes.

Could it be that the effort for the employer in the area, so you just talked about a high noise level, would even be higher if he would now employ normal hearing employees?

Not really, by noise level I mean it is relatively high compared to the office, but not so that the hearing employees would have to wear hearing protection. But nevertheless there is always a certain distance where you can talk very well with sign language. And if you can do that, then it's not a big handicap anymore, if you adjust to it. It is not the normal case that there are several hearing impaired people in a company, it is normally the case that the hearing impaired person works alone in the company and in the position and has to deal with hearing people. Then they would have to adjust to this or he would have to express himself in such a way or in writing that he would be able to communicate afterwards. So here it is an ideal condition for a hearing impaired person, because simply many people know sign language, that is just not the normal case.

How do you assess the performance of your hearing impaired employees?

With Mr. XXX in particular it is so that he is very ambitious and very precise. But I have to say that this does not necessarily have to do with the hearing impairment. The fact is, they are people like everyone else. I have had hearing-impaired interns here who have said that an internship is just to watch and not to work. That's a negative example, or they don't feel like it. So it's a human thing, it doesn't have anything to do with the disability. So it rather happens that people are more ambitious because they have a bad basic condition. But with Mr. XXX my impression is simply that he had a very good upbringing from his parents. His father, from what I've heard, is an ambitious and hard worker and that's what he's passed on to his son and that's how he's going to pass and perform here. And these are people you can use, so whether you have a hearing impairment or not.

So what is the communication like in difficult situations between you and the hearing impaired employee?

So really no different than with other employees as well. So what I have learned over the years is that you should always give people a clear message. If you don't like something as an employer, because it's not going the way it should be, the only thing that helps is to address it openly and clearly early on, as soon as you have the impression that it's going in the wrong direction. And with deaf people this can be done with the help of an interpreter, because then it goes into details that I might not be able to handle with my everyday sign language. Then you have to call in an interpreter. But otherwise it helps, as it does with every other employee, to speak clearly and early about what is going wrong, so that there are no two opinions, as they say. That actually also helps and we have already done that in some cases, in some cases it helps and those change, speak clearly and give in early. That's the case with everybody.

How does the compensatory levy help hearing-impaired people to enter working life?

In principle, the compensatory levy, I don't always fully understand, so of course we also claim subsidies and as far as I know, most of it comes from this pot of the compensatory levy and here in the cases it has often led to the fact that we can set up workplaces, and have also partly claimed machine subsidies for machines that we actually can't buy economically and also wouldn't have bought. For example, for the vocational training of a bookbinder we usually need a perfect binder. Normally we have 10 orders a year, or maybe 20, but in any case not on a scale where a perfect binder would pay off. With the support, which should have come from the equalisation levy, we have purchased such a machine and can also train on the machine. Can then here and there of course also sometimes take an order but as a rule, the device actually pays off, or would not have, or would not have been able to buy and would of course not have been able to train on the device accordingly. So these are possibilities where workplaces are set up that make sense for the employer, or where you can expand. Or if you have machines that would not make much commercial sense in terms of scope and type, you can get good support with this subsidy and that also makes sense. And that is simply a factor where the employer can say: "This must also be commercially worthwhile, no one can afford it or not essentially, to support so many people there or to hire there only out of pure goodness. But it must also always be presented in the economic time. And for it such means are actually very well suitable.

And if we now think in the other direction: How do you judge that, can it play a role whether I now as an entrepreneur hire a hearing impaired employee or not?

Yes, well, I mean, I have never had the embarrassment of having to pay the compensatory levy myself, because we are basically not obliged to employ severely disabled people at all. We wouldn't even have to take one. And as far as I know, the compensatory levy is less than if you have to buy a parking space in the city of XXX or even have to buy one free because you don't have enough parking spaces for your business. So it's not insanely high. So the motivation for an employer who doesn't want to hire a severely disabled person is not that high because of the compensation levy, I think. So it's not worth hiring someone instead of paying it. As far as I know it is relatively low in relation to the personnel costs that would otherwise be incurred. I actually think that it's more just a legitimate way to get the people who don't participate, I guess, at least financially, to pay a certain fee. And I think the pot is also so big that, as far as I know, there are rather problems that there are not enough employers who declare themselves willing to get, let's say, funds from the pot. So from that point of view I think it is satisfactory. But as a means of distribution, I think it makes sense and is legitimate.

You talked about, so there is start-up funding if you hire someone with a hearing impairment in that case. And are there other opportunities that you use? So permanent funding for example from the compensatory levy?

Not really permanent in that sense. So we have a support worker who is then approved over a three-year period, who trains this media designer, that is, the four media designers. And apart from that, Mr. XXX as an example, I'll say, he has been supported by the employment agency for the first time after his employment, so on salary, I think for 1 ½ years it was subsidised to a certain extent, I don't remember whether it was 50 or 60 percent, and apart from that, the subsidies for this have of course been through for 1 ½ to 2 years now and he is a completely normal employee. So once he's in permanent employment, then of course the subsidies no longer apply, that makes sense too, because he's doing his job quite normally. And there's no difference then.

The topic of personnel selection: Let's say an applicant with a hearing impairment is interested in a job with you. How does the application process work?

Well, we do a lot of training. We actually take 99% of our permanent employees from the pool of trainees we have there. And that means that for vocational training as well as for permanent employment, we usually do this through internships, which means that we look at the suitability of the person and so on. So of course it always depends on the job in question. For bookbinders and printers, school education is of course not as important as for media designers and media salespersons. Because there is simply more schooling, more spelling skills are required, or mathematical knowledge. And with the media designers, we also have hearing impaired people. We try to have people with a CI who are at least partially deaf or have a certain type of hearing loss, but can hear through the device, because media designers need a lot more customer communication, both by e-mail and by phone, in person. And also the people that so, that would be completely deaf would have a very hard time getting placed in that field. So in my estimation. And with the bookbinders, as I said, it's a different thing again, so then the selection is a little bit based on that. But one of the biggest problems that the hearing impaired have in vocational training in particular is simply poor grammar in German. And because they mainly communicate by signing, they don't really have any grammar skills worth mentioning, the German skills, very poor. That is, the main problem with most of them is simply to pass the written exam. So it's not that they can't do it intellectually, or that they can't do it because of the things that are asked. But they simply don't understand the questions, they don't know the technical terms, because they use simplified signs for a machine and if it says backstitch machine, they don't know that it's the ((makes sign)) Eckstraße. And then they are done with the word. And if you have to write it down or say: "What does it do?" Then they just can't get it down on paper. It's just this language barrier in that sense. And that is actually one of the main problems in schools. That's why you have to check, depending on the area, how good the German language skills are. And especially in the commercial areas it is a big problem. And with bookbinders and printers it's not really that relevant. The only question is: "Is it enough for the exam?" Well, I mean, you just have to take your chances. Almost all bookbinders are in support classes, where they are taught things on the side so that they can put it down on paper.

Good. But how would that be if you were to hire someone permanently now?

Well, we haven't done a permanent job interview with a hearing impaired person yet, because we would only take them from our own pool. But it is a fact that I already have more experience with hearing impaired people and of course I evaluate testimonials differently than someone who does not yet know them. Testimonies are de facto always significantly worse than those of hearing people. I also have some people where I would think that they could theoretically have gone to grammar school. De facto they can be glad that they managed to get a Hauptschulabschluss. That's not because of their intellect but simply because of their linguistic ability. That means, of course, that I am in a position to evaluate this differently and with most of the production professions, one would also see to it that one does internships if possible and looks at how the person behaves in a working environment, because that is what is exciting. Is someone motivated or is he not motivated. So that's not a difference, but a normal employer who doesn't deal with that, they're probably not going to be happy about the grades here and there, and they're going to be less able to deal with it.

Now you have already mentioned some criteria. Are there any other selection criteria?

The most important thing is the internship. The most important thing is actually motivation and the will and we have also always found that it is banal, with trainees and in production, cleaning machines is just as much a part of it as putting the hall in order. So we have a cleaning company for all the offices, but the hall and also the yard have to be kept in order somehow by the employees. And we have always noticed that if you let a trainee sweep the yard, which is the most stupid job we have to offer here. Then you notice within a minute whether the person likes to do the vocational training for the next three years, or is motivated to do it, or simply doesn't want to do it and actually only wants to do the things that are nice. You can see that immediately when you put the broom in their hand. And when he says: "Who cares, I'm here. I'm gonna sweep the yard." Then I know, okay, this is someone who's attitude is, "That's okay. I'll do it all." Because we just also have a lot of cleaning activities here, the machines have to be cleaned, the printing machines always have to have the inks taken in and out. That also has to do with cleaning in the production areas. If someone doesn't want to do it, you immediately notice what the attitude is like. They say it's part of the vocational training. Then you see it very quickly. Very banal, but it works. And that is actually the most important thing. If you are motivated, then you can do relatively much, if you don't feel like it, then he can be as clever as he wants, then he doesn't get any further and then we don't get any further with that person.

Yes, you said that there are certain training professions where someone should still have residual hearing, which has a more favourable effect, and other areas where it is not necessarily the case. Does it really play a role in the selection of people whether they are hard of hearing or deaf?

In the case of media designers, definitely yes. Because in my opinion it is already relatively difficult to get into the job later on. Media designer is a very overcrowded job still, for many years. And if someone has a hearing impairment and can't communicate, then it's simply difficult to find a job. And then the question is, should you give someone a vocational training and say: "Let's see what he does with it"? Or should you work a little bit towards it and say: "Yes, okay, if he then has to have contact with customers and certain things..." so you also have to be able to check as a media designer, if you set a text. This also includes a reasonable grammar. And in this case, the residual-hearing people or those with a CI, who are trained in spoken language at a relatively early stage, have this. They have a completely different grammar. There are media designers who can write just like a hearing person and in this area it is essential. I can't typeset a magazine and not begin to understand what's there. So you don't have to be able to proofread completely 1A, but you have to understand roughly what's in there and see if there's a typo in the headline or not. And if you don't understand that, then you have almost no chance of getting anywhere. And then I don't see any point in training someone here. That means that in this area we have done it this way, most of the time it's CI users who already have this CI at an early age and who are much better at spoken language and therefore grammatically. So we have a single one who is really deaf in the media design area, who has shown herself to be so talented in the internship that I said I would make an exception. Then you just have to see if that works. But otherwise, as a rule, in the media design field only if they still have a certain residual hearing.

What do you mean: She's shown herself to be particularly talented?

With the media designer there are teaching programs and image processing programs and she has such a great basic knowledge and from the hobby already had talent to process images, like actually almost a finished media designer and I just thought, I don't want to stand in her way and allow her the vocational training, because she is just really talented for it. And then she just has to see if she can get compensated for that and maybe she'll be lucky and find a job later, when we can't offer her one, somewhere in the association or somewhere else where they just take this social point into account and say: "She's got the talent, she can do that." Or maybe as a 3rd, 4th strength and maybe does the image editing and someone else does the text. She has to see how she can do that. But she has the talent for it and as a normal hearing person she would definitely be more than suitable for the job.

And what about her understanding of the language? So with the German language?

That's within limits, so I don't know exactly how good she is now, but it's definitely within the normal range. It is basically the case that the female trainees are generally better at school than the male trainees, they simply, I don't know whether they still read more, but there is simply more understanding of the language than with the male trainees. That is still the case. And therefore, I think, it is on a reasonable level. But now, as I said, there can be problems with the layout.

How is it with the ability of the hearing impaired employees in the German language according to your assessment?

Yes, the problem with the deaf is that there is simply a lack of spoken language practice. So the reproduction or also the remembering of the articles to be printed, which sentence order, tenses, that is difficult.

What effect does this have on your work here?

For me it doesn't really make any difference. Of course, I have to make sure that the person to whom I explain something really definitely understands it and doesn't do something completely different afterwards. You have to pay attention to that. But on the whole, if you deal with sign language and with the people, then it's actually relatively easy. So certain machines are simply titled, so a sign is invented, which an outsider would not understand directly at first, but which of course simplifies the daily contact. So I can try to represent the whole functioning of the machine in sign language. That is sometimes quite complex. And then we have abbreviations and in daily contact you get to know each other and then you know faster what the other person means or thinks. And that is not a handicap here. But if he is now in a company with only one hearing-impaired person and they think: "Okay, work now and don't ask too many questions", then barriers can of course arise.

How is it in the end with the personnel selection, who decides everything with?

Of course, when we take on new trainees, I ask the heads of department whether they think they'll fit in. We also look a lot at people, and with the hearing-impaired it is still a disadvantage that it is a very small community, a sworn community. There is a limited number of hearing impaired people and they usually go to school in the city of XXX or in the city of XXX, i.e. here in the surrounding area. That is the most. That means that everybody has seen everybody in the entrance level somewhere. Partly also two, three years up or down, they know each other, above all because they are already partly combined or however that is divided there. So, the probability that one of them has stepped on the toes of the other in the playground or has stolen the form in kindergarten, or has even been with someone, which then worked or didn't work, is not so small. That should not be underestimated. That is, if several hearing-impaired people come together, then there is already the probability that someone from the group's jaw drops when his ex-boyfriend comes in there. It's all been there. Or someone who always messed with the other guy at school. So that means in general, not only when hard facts come up, but of course you make sure that people get along with each other on a human level. If there are people who can't get along with each other at all because something happened or something else happened, then I ask. If Mr. XXX, especially with the bookbinders, waves off such and such and says: "I can't get along with such and such," or says: "That's someone who only causes trouble," or "He doesn't want to, he doesn't fit in here." On the basis of humanity, on the basis of togetherness, then I don't take him either. So it's important that the person fits in. And of course they notice that more than I do. As a rule, I don't notice when the person down there is doing the chubby thing. So that's the factor.

Good, career in the company. What development opportunities are there for your hearing impaired employees?

The only and best example is XXX, who started as an apprentice and because of his performance he was hired permanently and is now the head of the bookbinding department. That is the best and only example I have here. So in the printing area we have trainees and soon we may have to take on someone who has a hearing impairment. But we have two shift printers who were both trained by me, but who are not hearing impaired. And it depends on which positions are free. Because we are actually a relatively small company, but we have employed a relatively large number of hearing-impaired people, simply because it has come about, because we are good at vocational training and because in certain cases, let's say, a certain number of people is of course helpful. But apart from that, I would say, because we have the possibilities and it is fun to train the hearing impaired here and you simply generate your future employees from that. And many people have a problem with young people or a problem with young people in training places, which we actually have almost not at all. And we have a relatively low average age here anyway. So of course we have someone finished earlier than where the average lounges, but it's in the early 20s. And because of that, of course, we don't have a problem finding permanent employees. When I was looking for a bookbinder before Mr. XXX had finished his vocational training, he was in the middle of his vocational training. I got exactly one suggestion from the employment agency. So you could forget about him. So he didn't do much at all, what quality there was in the job was zero. So that means, if I don't train and create the people, then I don't have good people. Or then I have to take someone who also has a very high standard. The person came from the authority, he earned like no other and would like to have more if possible, so this area was closed and he will never earn that money again, because it is not economically feasible. That is far above the tariff and that is simply not possible and he has also not brought the performance for it, not even close. And I was just happy that I could take over Mr. XXX.

And what requirements does a hearing impaired employee have to fulfil in order to be able to take over such management functions?

Well, yes, that is still due to the nature and character. That means that Mr. XXX came here as a normal trainee, he was still young and unbiased, or how should I say. And because of his willingness to work, he also did his things reliably and neatly, and if someone wants to get into a management position, then of course he must first of all master his work neatly, must be reliable and should not be in such a way that I, as an employer, have to constantly check whether he is doing his work properly and whether he is doing enough, i.e. if something has to be finished, then he hangs himself behind it and doesn't just leave it there and think: "Tomorrow is another day" And I miss an appointment and the customer is gone. Or whether he then independently says, "Okay, then I'll just do it today until it's done and then I can still have time off afterwards." That's just the way it is with him and just has that sense of responsibility that he says, "Okay, we're not doing this for fun, or we're not doing this now so we can do the boss a favor, but this is a customer that we're providing a service to and it has to be high quality and it has to be done on time." If someone has internalized that, and Mr. XXX has on his own, more than I A would have expected and B would have demanded, then he is absolutely suited for it, so that's the best thing that can happen to you. So there are certainly a lot of people in management positions who don't bring that. Like I said, it has nothing to do with the hearing impairment at all in that case. I don't know how much more motivates him to show what he can do because he has this disability, I can't judge that right now. But it's just his character by nature. And when you have severely disabled people in front of you, you have to... you can't see it, you can only experience it during work. But if you look at it neutrally, then you find people who are very committed to their work and who, in retrospect, don't really care about their severe disability.

Does the ability to communicate also play a role in management positions?

Yes well, I mean in this case, as I said, he has a lot to do with hearing impaired people. He has very strong facial expressions, it has to be said. That is, it also helps to express things. Of course, it helps me to understand things more often. So he not only signs, but he also has very strong facial expressions. And of course you have to be communicative, it doesn't matter if you express yourself with signs in French, Spanish or German, it doesn't matter. You have to be. And he also says that he has got used to it, if something doesn't suit him, what a trainee does and as I said they test their limits, that he addresses it early. In this case then just in sign language. But you have to be communicative and proactive, as they say, and approach problems.

What does it look like with colleagues from other areas? How does that work with communication?

Well, most of the time he has to deal with the printers. Depending on how dedicated a printer is, the more sign language he knows. We happened to have - but this only came out after we had dealt with the first hearing-impaired people - he had a friend who was also deaf, very early on, and could still do a little bit of residual sign language, but the rest he picked up. And if someone is interested in the people we have, fortunately they are interested or they are so human that they enjoy it, they talk normally in sign language. And that works. So Mr. XXX demands here and there of course also gladly a sign. That's just a question, in another company, whether they don't say: "Leave me alone with your signs" or "Write it down and try to understand me." I can't judge that and it's often the case that it's actually relatively easy with signs in the print shop. So it's a relatively limited number that you have to know in order to make yourself understood, let's say in working life, as far as the orders are concerned. So for most people here that's enough, but for me it's enough that Mr. XXX can tell a joke and you can still understand him. So that expands over time if you use that.

A hearing impaired employee or Mr. XXX would like to take on a new job with you. What possibilities would he have?

Yes well, that is with us, so bookbinding looks like that, that we have to be always up to date with the machines, that means we have to look permanently, that he gets along with the machines. There are new machines that are added. In the bookbinding sector, we have been given a converting machine, which is a completely different subject area. We also got one for coating on paper, which also belongs to the bookbinding sector, but is not available in all companies or actually in very few of them. But just so generally on the industries we have always tried or times considered whether the Mr. XXX could perhaps make a master examination, the thoughts have failed, however, because there is simply no chance to submit somehow for a deaf person a master examination. So there is nothing at all in the chamber of commerce and industry or that there are any chances to start this somehow. So because there would be no infrastructure at all. That would have been an option, would have also made a certain attraction, there probably the 1st deaf bookbinder master to have, but at some point we have then simply no longer pursued, because that would have been very, we would have had to sweep very pioneer-like there by the dusty structures, in order to somehow get something like that.

What would be the main problem?

Communication in principle. So the main problem was then to attend the courses, that would have to be done completely via an interpreter, then, I don't even know what other things there were, all the exams and so on. All of that was not remotely somehow... that one could have made adaptations. At the vocational school for the hearing-impaired there are certain simplified examination forms and that is quite convenient for them and it is easier to handle. So it is already set that it is a bit simplified. And in this area nothing at all is planned. And there was also the Chamber of Industry and Crafts. So they were mainly overwhelmed with the request. So in general it didn't look like anything could have been done.

The initiative, did it come from Mr XXX or did it come from you?

No, so the idea came from my direction and he also thought it was a good idea somehow, but it was blocked relatively early. So it's not absolutely necessary, but it would have had a certain charm if he had gone ahead with it.

Which qualification measures are available for Mr XXX or other hearing impaired employees?

Basically we do this in house, of course, when we get a new machine, then there is of course a corresponding training of at least one day. We have now received a new typewriter. Then there was now a corresponding, a complete one-day briefing on the machine. Which is then a certain advanced training course for the corresponding machines. So most of the courses and further training are of course related to the machines that we have here. And we change the machines relatively often and expand. We have expanded a lot in the past year. And that is actually the essence of the qualification. We also have a master bookbinder, who of course always gives him instructions, especially for more special things, and teaches him the tricks that he knows from his position as a master. Otherwise, if Mr. XXX would now say: "Here, I would like to do this and that course now, so that I can do this and that, that somehow makes sense." Then, of course, you could do a course like that. But at the moment, most of the training is related to the machines here and every time something new is purchased, the purchase price always includes at least one or two days of instruction. Where the machine operator, and that's always primarily him plus other people, are then also trained in the machine and how it works.

And who does that?

The respective manufacturers do that. As a rule, they send technicians or instructors to explain the process. So there are usually three, four companies, because the bigger companies are really, they don't do anything but instruct on these machines.

Do you have support for communication?

With such complex things, i.e. with the cutting machine, we honestly didn't think about it separately, we could have ordered another interpreter, but of course, if we need an interpreter for instruction, that's never a problem, because we have the employment agency or the regional association, so it wouldn't be a problem to get the costs reimbursed and then also to make use of the corresponding services. But we would not be stuck with the costs if we needed an interpreter. It's not a huge factor, but as I said, it's de facto like that, I don't have a problem now and there are enough contact points where you can say: "Here, we need an interpreter for the briefing" So that's always paid for as well. So at the moment I always have a conversation with an interpreter and Mr. XXX, just to be on the safe side, where you sit down in the office and see what's going on, if there are problems or what else needs to be taken care of. And that is sometimes helpful, instead of now in the hall times with so between door and Angel or just also my limited sign vocabulary. Some contexts are of course so complex that I simply don't have all the vocabulary. It is helpful that we are constantly supported and at the moment I don't see that I will ever say: "That's enough", but rather that it is an ongoing thing. It's just a one-hour conversation once a month, and things come up more often that you would otherwise simply forget. Or where you then have the peace and quiet for.

The next point is the challenges in the workplace. The employment of hearing impaired employees is not an everyday occurrence, what are the challenges for
your company?

So in the day-to-day work, with some equipment we have optical warning signals or we have provided for the bell with optical warning signals, so with a rotating light, so that the hearing impaired can also see when someone rings the bell. And otherwise, of course, you have to pay more attention here and there. That means that if you roll the pallet towards someone, they don't hear it acoustically, so you have to be careful here and there that they hear it by tapping or other things, that's just the way it is. Even if a device makes a rolling noise or something like that, calling usually doesn't help most people. You have to make sure that you draw people's attention to it or that someone else admits to letting them know where they are looking in that direction. From the point of view of perception, of course, you have to look, so we haven't had a single work accident here in the whole time. And that's six or seven years with hearing-impaired people. These are just the things that come to my mind. Otherwise, as I said, the attentiveness, that is, everything in the eye area, is just rather higher with the hearing impaired. Because they have that as almost the only source of perception, they concentrate a bit more and therefore the perception is more precise. So Mr. XXX, right at the beginning, when I was almost wondering how it would work, he noticed very quickly when the machine came to a standstill, because he simply observed the machine and not because he heard: is it still rushing or has it already stopped? So you clearly have to check every now and then, so if someone is doing several things, then of course he can't hear about two things at the same time, whether everything is continuing like this. So not as fast as when someone hears. But as a rule, as I said, they can compensate for it and the machines are technically so advanced, they have so many sensors now, that they simply stop when an error occurs. In the past, the machines just kept on running and made a big noise and it was very important that you reacted very quickly and that was of course a bit more difficult with deafness than if you, let's say, could hear the stopper. So otherwise we don't really have, like I said, telephone or something or that you somehow call people. Well, the noise isn't quite as dreamlike there anyway, it also goes a lot via SMS. When something is going on outside the company. In the company rarely, that one internally would go however also. So we work a lot with SMS and you can actually communicate quite well with it.

To what extent do the employees concerned make use of their special rights?

Well, it's actually like this, the people we have here actually invoke some kind of right separately. So sure, they have 30 days holiday instead of 25, that's normal. But I have had now still none, which must refer now something somehow on it that he can take this and that now in claim, because he has a heavy handicap. So actually most people are rather in such a way that they would like to work actually completely normally and do not have to be valid actually at all as heavily disabled, want actually.

How do you find out about the support needs of your employees, so if your hearing impaired employees need something to compensate for their hearing impairment, how do you find out about it?

Well, as a rule, most of the hearing impaired go to school in the city of XXX, which means that if there is a need for supportive teaching or other things, we usually get an echo from the school. The support is actually quite good. And many are also in support classes. As far as hearing aids are concerned, I don't really have much contact with them, except that someone has a doctor's appointment. But everything that concerns the technical aspects of hearing aids is actually done privately. And as an employer we have no contact with them. So they look after themselves and take care of it. They make their appointments when a device is set up. Or one of them had a cochlear implant operation, so there's nothing that I'm aware of, but I don't have to actively make sure that one of them gets a better hearing aid or anything else. I don't have anything, and if there's anything else, well, that usually always goes through the heads of department, a lot of things are already clarified there that could somehow be problems. So if things get dicey, I have to get involved, and so far we've been able to solve everything without any problems.

Well, you said you have optical signal transmitters. And in certain situations you also use an interpreter. What's that like? Is that where employees come up to you and say, "We need this," or?

Yes, in principle, I don't know how the all-round bell came about, for example, but somehow it was noticed that the hearing aids don't participate in the ringing. That there is no one somehow underneath and just opens. And sometimes the office at the front is not occupied or the person is on the road, then those in the hall should also be able to open the door and since we have a lot of hearing impaired people, that makes sense. I don't know where the idea came from. But that was requested and then it was installed there and then it was just like that. But I don't know now, clearly the employees say, especially Mr. XXX is already very active. And says: "This and this is a problem. Here, we could in the work-related in general..."But this has not only to do with disability, but everything that can be improved somehow and so on, so he is also well equipped with all the tools and since this is a manual job and if then at some point a shelf is missing or something, then it is usually so that I then get the material or just simply provide the money and the independent, even Mr XXX goes to the hardware store and then they get the things they need and then it is done. And that is of course also a matter of positive attitude. There are also those who say: "I don't have to do that, it's not part of my profession." And Mr. XXX said, "This hall is a production hall, but it would be nicer, of course, if we painted the walls a little bright." They are currently light yellow and the ceilings if we paint them white, then they reflect better, that is then more attractive, from the light it works better. It just looks nicer. But it's not something that an employer would or would have to do in the classic way, because a hall is a hall and if it's just light grey or more or less white, then it's okay, it works. And if someone says, "Here boss, if you pay for the paint, we have time, then we'll paint the thing." And that's how it went, which is of course very nice, because the hall is more like a living room than a production hall. So it looked much worse and is of course good for the optical, for the well-being then of course again and for the light effect. And is of course dreamlike when an employee says: "We have time anyway, we can get the stuff, if you want, then we'll do it." And that's just a great attitude, you might not have that with the one employee who thinks, "I'll work here, then I'll go home and that's it. And I don't feel like doing more than my normal everyday life" and that's just such a difference between a good employee and a not so good one.

Can you remember a situation where you refused a suggestion what a hearing impaired employee would have needed here?

Well, as far as technical or disability-related things are concerned, you always have the advantage that if it makes sense and has to do with the disability, then you can apply for it and then you usually get it funded. So the support is already so far that if I now say: "I need a bell on the printing machine, so a rotating beacon, so that they can see that", then that is paid, there is actually no..., so everything that makes sense and is not exaggerated, is also paid. And therefore we don't have anything, so nothing has ever been rejected or I would never reject anything. So of course when an employee says: "Come on, I'd like the curtains from Ikea, they look so nice on the windows." And I say, "But they're not suitable for fire protection." Of course you can't buy everything and of course you have to think a bit economically, then sure, then I also say, "Unfortunately that's not possible, that doesn't make sense." But otherwise, so everything that is disability-related, would also be no problem at all to get that supported as I said. If something is needed.

Where do you get help to support your hearing impaired employees?

Well, we have different contacts. We have the Landschaftsverband with the integration service, which is the direct contact. Then there is the employment agency, then there is the welfare office and that's about it. But that's four contact persons in principle, so everything that is work-related goes through the employment agency, so if I now need something for an employee that he needs for his work in terms of disability, then it usually goes through the employment agency. And if they balk or don't want to do it anymore, for whatever reason, then the LVR will step in at some point. So everything was handicap-technically needed, that one gets. So it is also the sense of the thing that one has evenly no disadvantages thereby if one says: "I need there times a bell" Or sometimes it's really expensive to supply a printing press with an additional lamp, which isn't even provided for. Then you have to put a bit more into the circuits. That is also expensive and it also makes sense that as an employer you don't have an additional burden.

How do you rate the cooperation with the various authorities?

Actually, yeah let's put it this way, if you have more to do with there, then of course it's a bit easier. The authorities, many parts, more employment agencies than now the LVR, are more like application authorities. That means, if you get an application, then you also get support or can get certain benefits in kind. If you don't make the application, no one comes by and says, "Here, what can we do for you and how do we best get this done. And what's the best way to go about it." Or "What do you want to know, and then we'll explain how it works." But you make an application and then you get it or you don't get it. But it's not like you're being led by the hand. On the contrary, the communication is sometimes quite cumbersome. And the employment agencies are not always so cooperative. We in particular, because we train more, have often been told: "Yes, you train a lot and then it would be nicer if we found a new company, instead of supporting us to a greater extent in vocational training with wages, and at some point you get angry, because at some point you also think: "If others would train, then we wouldn't have the problem at all" So de facto hardly anyone is providing vocational training. In fact, we are one of the companies in XXX that trains the most hearing impaired people. We are a small company and it is rather sad that others don't do it or not to the same extent. And then the agencies start and try to haggle somehow and I think to myself, if you could see a prospect on the job market, then that's a great thing. Because the fact is, we train more than we need, so I wouldn't need them. And I am often dependent on certain support so that I can cover half the costs, otherwise I could not train so extensively. That is sometimes interpreted, I don't know, then I sometimes think, if I only took what I would need in trainees, then I would have half the team. But this way it is actually a quite pleasant constellation, which should actually help everybody, only you have headwind where you think: why? Because it should actually be in everyone's interest.

Your experiences with the vocational training of hearing impaired employees or the employment of permanent employees with hearing impairment. Is there any exchange of experience with the authorities or with other agencies?

Neither with the authorities nor with other companies. So if an event takes place, then you are only there for one day. That means that other owners might ask or tell you something or if there is an event of the Landschaftsverband or Metro, who do a lot, there was just me at a panel discussion. There is then something, but otherwise it keeps within limits. I don't know to what extent the IFD and the LVR take their experiences with them and pass them on, but we have relatively little contact with the IFD, because we are already so far into the subject that we don't need any more assistance for the pure application and actually do it directly with the Landschaftsverband. And there we just apply for things and then they ask what works and what doesn't, but the pure experience in the daily vocational training in the daily working life, that is actually not discussed. In the past, when there were problems, the IFD came by, interpreted or mediated. But such an exchange of experience in the sense that I say, this and that is a problem with hearing impaired and this and that works well, eh now separately, explicitly not.

The last topic "legal requirements". The SGB IX and the UN Disability Rights Conventions they are now for several years in strength. If your hearing-impaired employees need support, to what extent do the legal requirements also meet these requirements?

Well, let's put it this way, I don't know if I'm answering the question correctly, but the regional association is already making quite an effort. As far as the financial resources are concerned, I have the impression that they are already doing a lot to promote jobs and training places. What is actually missing is that the IFD also partly takes over something here. There was also change, which I can no longer do or should no longer do, just actually this mediation, this advice, what so these opportunities with concerns. There is still a bit of a concept missing, that one says: "What could be done? Can we set up one more training place or can we not set it up anymore?" That's what's missing. I have the impression that if I say, "Okay, I can do this and that," then that is gladly accepted in an application, but no one says, "How can we do that as a concept? How can we do this?" There's nothing planned or there's nothing kind of strategically accompanied. So it's always just on a case-by-case basis, there we get that hired, let's do great and there we get those and the grants. And then you can apply for it. Or whatever, but there is somehow no strategic orientation. So that's a bit missing, that I can somehow agree on the concept with someone. What you demand, what you can realize, especially now with us, where you have a certain volume, that is just a bit scarce.

So would you like more advice on the legal options that you have?

So theoretically I know the options, so what I could apply for and so on, I know. So we went last year and got quite a lot of enquiries for hearing impaired people or residual hearing people who wanted to do media design because it's just a super sought after job and it's also sought after by deaf people. So at some point, because I had a contact up to the upper echelons at the regional association via this event, where I also appeared on the podium, it was possible to ask directly. That's the contact I have there, but not everyone has it. And there was always the consideration, because we have so many requests, that we said we could set up four more places, but then we would also have to have someone to look after the whole thing. And then a subsidy was given in the direction of the caregiver. That was the kind of thing where you say, that was strategic and that should be expanded. But that was now due to a contact that I had, but so that in principle with larger projects or with larger companies that hire more, as I said, there is nothing somehow with strategic planning, there you miss so sometimes the strategy.

Where do you see the most urgent need for change for the participation of hearing impaired people?

Well, the main weak point for the hearing impaired is simply the school education, which is catastrophic. I don't know what the reason for that is, but it is partly just like that, if the deaf don't have grammar skills, then they simply don't have a chance to do any reasonable vocational training, because they simply don't get it on paper and then it should actually be ensured at an early stage that they are just as capable as others or even more capable of expressing themselves in writing. Because otherwise they have no chance at all in any area. We have one trainee here who is in the bookbinding sector, but her mother went and sent her to a regular school with two interpreters. You have to have a very strong character. Because when you arrive with an escort of two interpreters, you have to have self-confidence. And that girl has it. And when she writes me an e-mail, it is grammatically on an absolutely high level, as I am used to from a very good hearing person. So if that was, let's say, in the normal area, like in a normal school, then they would have completely different chances to get into the commercial area again. So we can manage 90 or 95 percent of all communications in the commercial sector via e-mail. And they have no chance at all of getting into the commercial sector, because they simply don't get their act together at school. And that is actually the main shortcoming that I see there, i.e. this school area with the hearing-impaired. Because otherwise I can't really say anything, so the school in the city of XXX in particular is making an effort, there is an institute which is responsible for the support courses, which is making an effort and which is also doing a lot. And there is already a lot. It is not that one has to say that everything is not going well, but mainly the approach in the school is there. That's the main problem.

What other possibilities do you see to support hearing impaired employees on their way to participation in working life?

Actually, I'm not quite up to speed on that, but the IFD has been cut back a little bit in some capacity, because lately, so they've kind of decreased. It used to work like this, that someone from the IFD just goes into the companies, tries to get internships first and then in that way to get the people into vocational training. So that's actually how it works. So if a company has no or little experience, then there is no other chance than to get people into the first vocational training. And this has worked quite well for us and has developed into a self-perpetuating process, but in that direction, yes, it can only work if companies are approached. That's a lot of work, but there's no other way. So another possibility there, so the subsidies, I think everyone knows that there are some, but the question is also whether someone sees the relationship of workload to subsidies then so. As a rule, if you don't know whether you can get good employees and of course if you are prepared to deal with them and to motivate them, then most people will say: "That's too much work for me, I'd rather leave it alone Of course, the age structure of the population with the severely disabled could also play a role. Of course, people might have to search a bit more and be more willing, if they find someone at all, to find someone who has a handicap, but who doesn't have such a dramatic effect on the job, so of course it only makes sense to place people with handicaps in jobs where they can compensate for it. And as I said, there are enough jobs that you can do despite a certain disability and you have to find the right job and the right assistive products. Then it works out for a lot of things.

How do you see the special protection laws, do they perhaps have an influence on the decision to hire a hearing impaired employee now, be it in
vocational training or permanently?

In my case it is not so dramatic, because we train first and the training has the advantage: it is limited, that means the employment or training contract is valid for three years. You have a probationary period like everyone else, which means that there is a risk if someone has already done an internship after three months, if he or she changes completely - you usually know by then whether someone is suitable. Then you just have to act until then. And if someone comes through the time cleanly, behaves sensibly, then we have to make sure that we get a grip on them. So that one makes such a total failure, is relatively rare. Most of the time it becomes apparent beforehand and, as I said, if someone behaves completely wrongly, that's a fact and you can still terminate him, that's no difference. But that is certainly a different matter when you have to employ someone you hardly know, who basically has a different orientation, protection against dismissal. That is certainly, I think times also a factor, with which most employers have first of all doubts.

The law also specifies what a hearing impaired workplace has to look like. How do you realize the requirements for such a workplace?

Well, to be honest, I haven't read or looked into it yet, because we actually equip the workplaces the way we intuitively think, i.e. the workplace is equipped the way it would be for a hearing person and everything that is now in the way of alarm signals or safety things that a deaf person can't hear, we have had them retrofitted. So that is very limited. Most machines nowadays are always designed in such a way that if you remove any safety cap, or it has to be like this, then the machine stops and you have displays, you have everything documented in writing, so there are no voice-controlled, there are actually only warning signals and with many devices it is, so if it were necessary, if the warning signal was so important that there would be either health problems or machine problems, then in the past we have always replaced these with flashing lights or rotating beacons. But that's relatively rarely the case and that's actually all the special equipment we need. Otherwise, in day-to-day use, of course, you look at what could be a problem and try to fix it. And otherwise, as I said, I have to admit, I haven't really looked into the law, because in practice there were no problems. And I don't know what's exciting in it. I think it will be a general formulation that it must be equipped in such a way that it is suitable. And that's what we're doing. So this will certainly not be a concrete work instruction here, which devices are to be equipped with which warning light. That's why the general things are actually also logical in one's own interest, because I don't want the person to be injured and of course I also don't want a machine to break down because it has a malfunction for hours and that would cause a defect, so it's actually a logical self-interest.

I'm actually pretty much at the end then. I've got this kind of outlook now. We are now in 2011, if we dare to look into the future, how would you assess the situation of your hearing impaired employees in 5 years?

Yes, at the moment, as I said, we have a permanent employee, who will be employed here in 5 years, I assume with relative certainty. We have trainees who are doing vocational training at the moment. When they are finished, so we can only take over a certain proportion or certain positions through expansion only arise because we have almost no fluctuation. That means that the permanent positions we have at the moment are filled. Of course, we are trying to expand a little bit more, then of course we are trying to take over some of the trainees from the pool, especially hearing impaired trainees, into permanent employment. In 5 years, we have roughly planned, there could be another 2 positions, if everything goes according to plan. And for them it will then go on as normal in the company here. The others would have to look for a job in the profession or in a related profession, but as trained strengths and not as untrained strengths. That is the perspective in that respect.

Now you have already mentioned that you have a media designer in vocational training. What could become of her?

Yes, in principle, we have several media designers and that actually applies to all of them, that they actually have to see if they can get it compensated and as a full-fledged strength, but with every hearing impaired person you just have to say openly, so they actually have the chance in associations and companies that either have the necessary size to let someone do a somewhat more limited area of work or just the necessary time, support in the association, we have already had once. Where you make one magazine a month, where you say you need someone for that, but you don't have to work full steam ahead. And you can also offer support here and there. So, that would be, like, a suitable position. Yes, I see "media designer" is such a difficult field, so also for hearing people. There are thousands of media designers, it's just a favorite profession that's been around for a long time. It's hard there either way. Then they have to see one way or another how they can get into this field. So, from there, depending on the type of profession, it is sometimes better, sometimes easier or more difficult. You have to see how the economy develops, which jobs are in demand and what kind of vocational training and handicrafts are concerned. They are rather happy when they find people who are suitable. And that will continue later in the jobs, that there will be a lack of permanent employees and workers, they will not find enough, actually have enough possibilities. And that is with hearing impaired people always unfortunately so that they probably go more into the practical area than into knowledge occupations, because they can simply make practical things, there the grammar is not so necessary. And especially in production, hearing can perhaps be compensated for under certain circumstances, at least through devices, lights and so on. That this will become easier and also for the others it will become more difficult. The printing sector is not doing so well either. The industry is also becoming smaller and it is of course much more difficult if there are fewer companies that carry out this activity. But for everyone. So for the hearing as well as for the non-hearing. You have to make sure that you are among the better ones, then you will find a job.

Thank you very much for the interview.

You're very welcome.